I'm not crazy about the health plan, but after Palin's bs about "Death Squads^TM", I don't know whom to believe...

I'm sure it'll be a sound-bite on Rush, Boortz, Hannity, Beck, and even Maddow and Olbermann...

Last edited by AladdinSane (2009-09-09 23:43:06)

As much as I detest the Republican Party, I’m always amazed that they can get poor Whites to vote for them when it goes against their basic interests to do so.  To get poor Whites to vote overwhelmingly for a party whose main goal is to increase the wealth of the top 1% of the population at the expense of everyone else is a stunning feat.  I don’t think the Democrats are all that great, but they are less toxic to the poor and middle classes than the Republicans are.

Of course this means the ruling class has to have Republican puppets who can somehow appeal to the “common man”, and this means their politicians (read tools) are often uncouth and totally lack discretion and common sense.  This is why you get an asshole who brags about cum dripping out of the lobbyist he’s screwing.  It’s why you get a congressman who does his dick sucking in a public bathroom instead of making more private arrangements.  Or a governor who thinks it’s OK to disappear for a few days in order to leave the country to screw his mistress and not care it leaves the government in a lurch when nobody knows where he is. 

And then there’s the asshole who disrupts a presidential speech with personal insults instead of keeping his disagreements on a professional level. One of the rules of politics is that your opponent on one issue may be the ally you need on another issue.  Nobody wants to work with someone known to be a vindictive backstabber.  All I can say is that the skeletons in his closet had better be well boxed and hidden, because a lot of people are now interested in them.

Scotty - I trust that it is just the vandal in you that is inspired by Joe Wilson's petulant little outburst.  I have a streak of that in me as well; indeed, that may be what drew me to Cruel to begin with.  Still, all I got from his barking out was that he is woefully uninformed and would be better cast as one of the servers at a teaparty.

Emmeran wrote:

On the other hand, Obama had just stated moments before that if you are speaking an untruth about the bill you're gonna get called on it.....and he was called on it.

Where are the provisions for illegal aliens?  Quick Emmy, share with us.

fnord wrote:

As much as I detest the Republican Party, I’m always amazed that they can get poor Whites to vote for them when it goes against their basic interests to do so.  To get poor Whites to vote overwhelmingly for a party whose main goal is to increase the wealth of the top 1% of the population at the expense of everyone else is a stunning feat.

One word: Religion

ah297900 wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

On the other hand, Obama had just stated moments before that if you are speaking an untruth about the bill you're gonna get called on it.....and he was called on it.

How can somebody be lying about what they're announcing that they're planning to do? He was laying out what he specifically wanted for the first time.

Besides, all four of the legislature's plans explicitly don't allow illegals to get coverage. What more do you want?

Correct, but all three attempts to attach preventive or punitive measures to enforce that explicit deny have been voted down on party lines. 

So, while illegals aren't allowed coverage - you aren't allowed to check to see if they are illegal; and I'm not just pulling this out of my ass

I'm not supporting - just saying.   It's worth noting that I'm not interested in a "your papers please" society but on the other hand we are very fucking broke.

ah297900 wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

ah297900 wrote:

How can somebody be lying about what they're announcing that they're planning to do? He was laying out what he specifically wanted for the first time.

Besides, all four of the legislature's plans explicitly don't allow illegals to get coverage. What more do you want?

Correct, but all three attempts to attach preventive or punitive measures to enforce that explicit deny have been voted down on party lines. 

So, while illegals aren't allowed coverage - you aren't allowed to check to see if they are illegal; and I'm not just pulling this out of my ass

I'm not supporting - just saying.   It's worth noting that I'm not interested in a "your papers please" society but on the other hand we are very fucking broke.

The problem with the provisions for penalties against giving health care to illegals was always that they also cut citizens out of health care.

And by the way, the logic that says that when we insure the uninsured, we're cutting down on emergency room costs (which we pay for anyway), also goes for illegals. If they're not insured, they'll still be able to get health care in emergency rooms, which is still going to eventually cost us more than just giving them access to GPs.

All very true, but you also have to do something to prevent millions of people from crossing the border for their annual checkup.   All public plans in the world have provisions for this exactly because of that problem.

Fact check on Obama's speech, and more fact-checking on the proposed plan in general.

Fled wrote:

Emmeran wrote:

On the other hand, Obama had just stated moments before that if you are speaking an untruth about the bill you're gonna get called on it.....and he was called on it.

I don't see where you get this at all.  Are you saying that the now humbled congressman "called" Obama on a lie?  He said that illegal immigrants were not eligible to be insured under the program.  How is that a lie?  Illegal immigrants are expressly barred from receiving benefits.  You seem to think that the current lack of a provision imposing penalties on illegal immigrants who seek benefits is the same as making them eligible for benefits.  This reasoning is fallacious.  Dead people, giraffes and Buick Skylarks are also not subject to penalties, but clearly they are not eligible for benefits.  Would it be a "lie" to say that dead people. giraffes and Buick Skylarks are not eligible to be insured under the program?

Even absent a specific criminal sanction for illegal aliens seeking health insurance benefits, it would still be prosecutable fraud for them to sign an application that falsely stated that they are citizens or otherwise legally here.  Finally, I do not know what basis you have for saying that case workers will not be able to ask whether applicants have legal status.  Is there a prohibition somewhere?  All I have seen is that proposals to require such an inquiry have not been incorporated into the legislation.  If you have nothing you can cite, then this too is a fallacious argument.

Jesus dude - how can you fail to see the ironic humor in that situation?  I agree the guys shouldn't have done it, but since I think all politicians are professional liars I found it fitting.

If you insist on beating this dead horse then let's apply some common sense here; if you forbid someone from driving without a license but then do not issue license cards or keep a license database then you really aren't forbidding anything.  Sure it's fraud but without any checks or audits it's not caught.

The reason the repubs are up in arms about it is that the dems refused to allow provisions to enforce the rule...ergo they didn't make a rule.  Laws that are not enforced are not laws at all, if anything they are basically a suggestion....

Last edited by Emmeran (2009-09-10 18:18:29)

Emmeran wrote:

ah297900 wrote:

This discussion characterizes much of what's been going on around Obama for a while now. Between the birthers, the scandal about his "stay in school" speech, and all the health care death-panel stuff, I've never seen so much opposition against a president based on complaints that are all definitively, demonstrably false.

The majority of people said they didn't like Bush because of Iraq, Katrina, financial mismanagement, etc. There weren't national news outlets and congressmen talking about him causing 9/11, or being a monarchist.

What. The. Fuck.

Here's the thing with the illegals question (and remember I support HR3200), for all other major federal entitlement programs (medicare, welfare, SS, VA, etc) applicants are all checked for eligibility using the SAVE system.  About 70 entitlement programs in all, it's hard to support the idea of not sticking with the standards here.

If you want us to pay for health care for the citizens of other countries then propose that and let's debate it.

We are in agreement. I'm not sanguine on the idea of incentivizing illegal immigration. My only point was that if paying for emergency room visits for citizens' asthma attacks is exorbitantly expensive, the same logic would apply if they're non-citizens. Either way, us insured people are out 5-7 thousand dollars, when we only need to pay for a couple hundred dollars' worth of care. It's currently illegal to turn away sick people, regardless of their citizenship status--we're already paying.


Edit: HEAR MY VOICE! HEAR MY VOICE! HEAR MY VOICE! THIS IS NOT THE COUNTRY I GREW UP IN!

i win. i'm louder.

Last edited by ah297900 (2009-09-11 01:14:22)

Dmtdust wrote:

Guy looks like a fuckin' zombie.  And talks like one of my third graders explaining to his mommy why he punched a kindergartner in the lunch line.  Hope he gets his ass handed to him.

Emmeran wrote:

*  *  *

If you insist on beating this dead horse then let's apply some common sense here; if you forbid someone from driving without a license but then do not issue license cards or keep a license database then you really aren't forbidding anything.  Sure it's fraud but without any checks or audits it's not caught.

The reason the repubs are up in arms about it is that the dems refused to allow provisions to enforce the rule...ergo they didn't make a rule.  Laws that are not enforced are not laws at all, if anything they are basically a suggestion....

Emm - The dead horse is entirely your own.  I am not repeating myself ad nauseum.  You are.  I posted a single comment, just to say that your argument is fallacious.  You have posted a bunch, all trying to make a point about lack of a specific enforcement provision, none of which makes Obama's short statement false. 

As for the humor in the situation, I agree that Joe Wilson is funny (although quite unintentionally).  The "situation," however, was more sad than funny.

A separate issue is whether mandatory electronic checking of citizenship or alien status ought to be required.  It sounds like a reasonable idea, although I think ah's responses have made good points as well.  ERs generally will not turn away people based upon status, and many medical professionals would find it contrary to medical ethics to deny treatment on that basis.  Thus, many of their treatment costs will be incurred and will be folded into national health care cost in any event.

nfidelbastard wrote:

Joe Wilson's Dirty Health Care Secret

And Joe like most veterans and active duty would probably tell you that TRICARE, which is Medicare: Minus a Buncha Shit sucks balls to high heaven.  Which might explain why he ran for office so he could get cushy congressional health care to cover everything that TRICARE doesn't.

My kid wrote something on that YouTube about the fact that he, as a 12 year old isn't allowed to shout insults at authority figures and that Joe Wilson needs to grow up and stop embarrassing his state and making the Republicans look crazy.

Some right wingnut wrote him back:

"Get over yourself, read the anti-federalist papers, learn some history, and come back with a useful comment in 20 years."

AladdinSane wrote:

I'm not crazy about the health plan, but after Palin's bs about "Death Squads^TM", I don't know whom to believe...

I'm sure it'll be a sound-bite on Rush, Boortz, Hannity, Beck, and even Maddow and Olbermann...

Which is EXACTLY why Palin said it. It's why Fux News was created in the first place, to create such a cloud of bullshit that no one would know what to believe.

ah297900 wrote:

This discussion characterizes much of what's been going on around Obama for a while now. Between the birthers, the scandal about his "stay in school" speech, and all the health care death-panel stuff, I've never seen so much opposition against a president based on complaints that are all definitively, demonstrably false.

The majority of people said they didn't like Bush because of Iraq, Katrina, financial mismanagement, etc. There weren't national news outlets and congressmen talking about him causing 9/11, or being a monarchist.

What. The. Fuck.

And that's the result.....

Never mind, GO.  Be bummed.

He's catching up.

Capitulation

Oh, and shocking news.  Obama was fucking lying.

Illegals should be rounded up and shot on general principle.  They are economic terrorists responsible for driving down wages, and the associated costs of crime, unpaid hospital bills, and illegal enrollment of their sprogs in school are a few of the additional damages that result from their presence.

Scotty wrote:

Capitulation

Oh, and shocking news.  Obama was fucking lying.

Maybe he didn't want to do it doggy. 

Scotty, you either cannot read or don't care how wrong you are.

Joe Wilson Haiku contest.

Fled wrote:

Undocumented aliens were not and are not eligible for plan benefits under the proposal.

< BleedingSarcasm > How can you be so naive?  The fact that the pro-posed bill does not call for the im-mediate castration of un-documented aliens at-tempting to pro-cure benefits obviously means that they will be en-titled. < /BleedingSarcasm >

Fled wrote:

Just read the string and think a little.  The argument you make is a sophistical-rhetorical device, which involves changing the subject just enough that you can claim that you were right all along.  Undocumented aliens were not and are not eligible for plan benefits under the proposal. 

I realize that there is little hope of convincing you to see the issue without bias.  If a rational discussion in fact is desired, it would be far better for people on the right not to insist that somehow Obama lied when their assertion is obviously wrong, but instead to argue that the prohibition on benefits to undocumented aliens needs or requires specific enforcement provisions.  Then a rational discussion can proceed, one that has merit.  But to get hung up on defending Wilson's childish outburst is to get sidetracked.

It isn't a matter of getting hung up on Wilson's outburst it is a matter of whether Obama lied.

Obama wrote:

There are also those who claim that our reform efforts would insure illegal immigrants.  This, too, is false.  The reforms -- the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

      Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

What Obama said was an outright lie.  There are no provisions in H.R. 3200(the most prominent of bills) that say that illegals would not be insured.  These are Obama's words.  Everyone in the country regardless of status would be required to purchase health insurance.  Therefore illegals would be insured under the bill.

Section 246 quoted above specifically states no affordability credits(read: tax credits) yet no where in the bill, as you state, are there provisions for verification and enforcement.  This is a completely different argument altogether.

Mingling the two together comes from the fact that the verification and enforcement should move one step up to stopping illegals from purchasing taxpayer subsidized coverage(read: government option on the exchange) in the first place.  Up until the bullet points on the post I made the White House and Congressional Democrats were blocking the amendments to do so at every single turn.  Pandering to the Latin Caucus.

I'm all for illegals spending money here in the United States to have private, non tax payer subsidized insurance.  It cuts down on federal law emergency room payments I would suppose.  I doubt as the bullet points say that they purchase much private insurance.  I'd love to see some numbers on that.

I also note according to the bullet points that there is no additional back-up system in place to utilize SAVE for affordability credits in case illegals manage to procure tax payer subsidized insurance.

Bottom line is that Obama lied.  Not even in a Bush lied sorta way.  Bush seems to have been misled by intelligence at the time and the people surrounding him.  I think Bush truly believed what he was saying because of perhaps faulty intelligence.  Obama flat out knew that illegals would have been covered under any bill he signed prior to Wednesday night without the provisions they are agreeing to in those bullet points.

Wilson's outburst, indecorous as it was, gave the opposition a spotlight with which to point out to the American public that Democrat after Democrat has torpedoed in committee any provision that would stop illegals from receiving tax payer subsidized insurance.  Bush pandered to illegals with his talk of amnesty and Democrats were pandering by trying to get them further onto federal payment rolls.

Now, had Obama said "nothing in the reforms I am proposing would insure illegals with tax payer money" then he might not have to backtrack on these amendments.  But then who is changing the subject?  Certainly not me, Fled.

Fled wrote:

Scotty - As I said, there is nothing that can be said that will turn the light on for you.  Illegal aliens are not covered by and are not eligible for benefits under the proposal.  They may be required to purchase insurance, but they are not provided benefits under the proposal.  This discussion has moved way past being repetitive.

Listen, I'll be the first to admit to the axiom that minds are made up and cannot be changed especially on the internet.  If however, the discussion has become repetitive it because of your purposeful obtuseness.

How someone would be required to purchase insurance and not be eligible for those benefits is beyond me.  I think that would be great.  Maybe that is how Obama is claiming that his proposals wouldn't add one cent to deficits.  He's gonna force millions of illegals to buy insurance and then deny them care.  We get the premium money and they get no benefits.  Excellent idea.